The State of the Forum

[Angra Mainyu]

[Jake]

[Angra Mainyu]

[Archer]

[Auro-Cyanide]

Yeah, I'm okay with just sticking to VN. The only time I ever make a distinction is when I'm talking about cultural difference that are or should be there, in which case I use JVN and EVN (though it could be WVN in the same way there is JRPG and WRPG). Otherwise I just use VN. We aren't the only one's that have issues with naming anyway. Comics went through it for years, thus the graphic novel scene, and 'games' in generally I still fighting the negative connotations that they can't be serious. So yeah, sticking with VNs seems like the most simple solution. Plus, it's less letters to type.

[nubbycakes]

[Kappa Creek]

If you don't mind someone you (probably) don't know from Eve butting in with some thoughts...

This forum has a function in the VN community. Or rather, it has the potential to. You seem to have this idea of where you want it to go, and that general direction does have its uses. It won't be the right fit for every developer, but you're not really intending on reaching "every" developer, are you?

The real problem is in not really setting the forum off in a firm direction. (At least, that's how it appears to me.) It looks like right now you've set a block of unformed clay in the middle of the room and said, "Artists - I want you to make of it what you will, but reach a consensus." So there's a bit of milling around and some people poke the clay this way and some tentatively poke it another and most of the rest of the class hangs back trying to figure out where the ones leading are going to lead. I understand that you're probably trying to get the community to develop itself organically based on what it needs, but it needs somewhere to start, even if it's as simple as, "This is the basic shape I'm going for. What do you think... wings? No wings?"

There's no "identity" here yet. The forum is very off-putting to someone who just wanders in. There's no name for the forum. The blurb is a, "Uhm, yeah, dunno if we're going to be here or not... maybe... I don't know...?" And while I read in one of the threads that the reason for the utterly bare-bones default forum skin is to give the middle finger to spambots, it does mean that the lack of identity is driven home.

I wasn't originally going to sign up. I was going to spend the next few weeks on my solo project and turn to LSF whenever I needed help or had questions because this forum seemed like it had potential, but was going to gutter and go out for lack of direction.

So you need to decide - what is your direction?

Are you intending on founding a group of developers where they spend a bit of their time laying out guides and how-tos and trading tips? ("This is my guide on how I use Photoshop to..." "Backgrounds became a cinch when I..." "Your friend, Creative Commons" "Guide on how to create X effect in Ren'py") Is it a Developers Resource forum - a sort of "Guild" of those serious about the craft?

Or is it more of a Workshop forum where areas are set aside for different stages of the building process and these group workshop participants shout out to each other, "Come look and what I learned!" "Anyone got a hammer?" "Does anyone know how to...?"

Maybe it's more of a Symposium forum where between projects developers gather to discuss the "philosophical" aspects ("Why do we do [this thing] when we make VNs? Has anyone tried...?" "Today I watched such'n'such and it got me to thinking about...") and the tools of the trade in abstracts ("I use Ren'py because..." "I hadn't thought much about using layers in this way, but this is seeming to save me time - what do you think of my method?").

I'm exaggerating the differences slightly, of course. You'd probably want to have areas for all three of them. But which is it meant to be most like?

And is "that" the draw? I mean, is the purpose of the forum to be a place where Developers go to talk to Developers? Or did you have a secondary draw in mind? Like a seasonal challenge to creators? Nothing to compete with NaNo, of course. But something that lasts longer and just has a theme in mind to inspire and give a nominal deadline for a project. Or even some sort of Developer Awards?

I bring these thoughts up not because I'm trying to push for them, but because I'm trying to get you to think about this forum's purpose and what is meant to attract a developer here besides the presence of other "I R SRS DEVLPR" participants. The goal of the host's previous forums was more than just "finishing a comic" - it was specifically to be published by Tokyopop (well, for many/most of the users - I wasn't really so sure what I wanted). There was a goal higher than simple completion. It gave the participants something to shoot for. And, again, I'm not saying that this forum "needs" more than the idea that if you're talking to someone, you're talking to someone whose interest in VN development goes beyond, "I want to influence things to get a game I want to play." or "It seems like a fun weekend project. Oh. Well. Bored now of working with it." What I'm asking is, "Does the forum want a 'higher goal' for its participants to shoot for and to attract people who are shooting for a 'higher goal' than just completing?"

I hope I'm making sense here. I was poking around the VN community and stumbled in via checking out the blogs listed in Planet EVN, which had me check out the two blog posts that lead to the forums. Then reading the majority of the forum threads posted here. What struck me is how there was an idea of an idea, but no movement or comment towards an idea - and I think that's why it's not really a relevant forum yet. It's not yet strong enough for people to commit to because there's nothing to get behind except, "Yeah... maybe we'll be this...? ... ..."

[Auro-Cyanide]

@KappaCreek, This is true. Deciding direction is one of the main hurdles, mostly from the fact no-one wants to appear as 'bossy' in which direction that is. Which is understandable. It's very easy to create a space of the internet for you, but trying to create one for a community is a little different. I would like to include all three of the options you mentioned because each one serves the purpose of why I am here to begin with.

To learn and to understand.

I am not satisfied thinking of Visual Novels as a finished medium. Pish posh. It has far too much potential to be thinking of things as 'This is the best way of doing things and the only way to do things'. Like everything else, it is growing and changing. I'm not going to be satisfied with just doing without thinking first about why I'm doing it. While I could very well undertake experimentation and thinking on my own, and learn and understand from that, I am not capable of thinking of everything in every direction, every perspective. Which is why you talk to other people in the first place. That is why I am here.

Plus, content. We need content. It is very hard to talk about something when it is not there. I feel as if I should contribute, I'm just not sure what yet, or how. I'm an artists so most of my thoughts revolve around visual communication. Different ways I could do things, different ways to present information. Ways to save time or expand range. However, my understanding of programming is very limited (please read non-existent) and so it hinders my ability to properly think of solutions. I'm still wondering on the best way to phrase what I think so it would be relevant to other people, to be of interest to other people. Sometimes starting is easier said than done when you think too much about it.

[Kappa Creek]

Yes - I totally understand not wanting to step on anyone's toes. I'm inclined that way myself, after all! I just sometimes have to get to the point where I at least try to make waves to see if it moves things along so I can go back to being lazy and quiet. xD;

I'm partial to having all three areas I described as well. I think they're all useful and appeal to different learning types. (Seeing, Doing, Thinking is how I'd describe them.)

I'm a writer and artist myself. I'm someone who's geared a lot towards visualizing what I'm going to do and thinking a lot about how to do it and then throwing myself in and hoping I don't kill myself/make a jerk out of myself/set things on fire somehow. So, say, a few months ago when I went skiing for the first time, I fell down a lot not because I didn't have the balance, but because I was standing at the top of the bunny slope trying to remember everything my brother had taught me/what I knew from previous mentions of skiing in film/overhearing things; etc. and going, "Okay, I'm going to - oh crap, my skis are moving, I'm not ready! I will fall down now to prevent myself from toppling into that kid!" After making myself fall a few dozen times, I was frustrated and tired, so my brother moved on to teaching his mother-in-law while I rested. It took so long, I got bored and decided, "The heck with it. Let's see what happens." I made it down the slope all by myself, weaving amongst probably 100 others, and the only reason I fell at the end was because I didn't start turning in time to prevent myself from crashing into the line of people waiting to get on the conveyer belt that took them back up the slope - so I fell rather than crash.

The long story is essentially to illustrate how I learn: A lot of looking, a lot of thinking, and finally doing with an almost fatalistic, "Let's see what happens." And what helps me learn faster is to have a lot of useful things to look at and think about because the more I understand what's going to happen when I "do", the better I am at it. That's why I'm hoping this site will take off because I think that having a group of people who have experience and/or creativity and determination will be of a lot of use to me.

LSF is a great resource for what it is. But what it is is overwhelming, with lots of useful things buried years back and a mixture of people with experience and those without much of anything to bring to the table except noise. And I suppose since I haven't yet "done", all I have to bring to the table right now are my observations and experience with writing and drawing. But I know you (Auro-Cyanide) have "done" even if it doesn't seem to have been coding specific. It's still experience, though. So when some numpty like me rolls in and says, "o hai guyz..." and finally asks, "So, when you did the graphics for your game, what was the thing you learned on your last project that made it easier?" or "Do you do anything with your art on your end to make the overall filesize of the game smaller, or do you aim more for the highest quality art you can get?" or whatever question, you do have something to offer.

I believe my mind is wandering - apologies. I suppose ultimately, I've been thinking to myself that there's a ton of information out there, but a lot of the useful stuff is buried and/or scattered amongst very long threads where people chime in with inane posts, incorrect information, corrections, follow-up questions, and so on. So I've been thinking that if someone would just come along and condense the information somehow, that'd be great. But of course, it'd take away from peoples' current projects, so it's not really something I can see being sustained by many active creators... ._. /rambling

[nubbycakes]

Just a thought. As far as getting new, active members are concerned, would you object to some advertising? I currently frequent The Teacup (as you're all mostly aware of) and a new forum I just put up for general otaku culture, The . I have been thinking of promoting this forum a bit in these forums and in one of my blogs, My twitter account, which is apparently being monitored by people from the EVN scene, some of whom I'd rather not have watching every little thing that I say, is also connected to my blog.